Tindar:
Alright, so the class I'm taking is in visual art department. So technically a graphic design class, but they like try and expand it beyond just like visual stuff. And so the class actually is about web design, but they take, try and use that as like a learning tool for other types of art. So the idea is the professor's really big about how linking and creating like webs. And at the biggest case, being the Internet is a is an artistic medium in and of itself. Right. So you got, you know, the individual pieces are like web pages, right. And you can have a website that links all these together. And you can have a random organization of them, or you can have a more interesting organization of them. And then you have links between websites. And that, like network of all these different things makes, makes a new form of art, it enhances the art in some kind of way. And so the reason I wanted to talk to talk to you about it is because I saw a connection to breaking it and movement really, in how that happens, right? And especially the way we look at it at it with having, you know, sort of these positions, these these static places in space, but then you link them together, right? Like the technical name of the class is graphic design link. Right? It's all about linking. And so there's a couple different perspectives, I want to hear your take on, for how linking applies to movement and braking. So the first is like, just in a very, like, an in an individual level. Right? So you have someone who's moving. Right. And, you know, there's, there's moves, and then there's movement, right? So how is it that the organization, the ordering, and sort of all those links between positions, create something more than the, than the moves themselves? So the place the positions themselves?
Raphael:
Say that last part, again? How do the
Tindar:
how do the position? How do the links between positions in space? Or moves, you could call them like, like, the drops that we talked about? How do those enhance? Hence, the the movements are beyond just just the moves?
Raphael:
Man? That's a? That's a big question. Because if you look at is, as you say, this real quick, if you if you if you look at letters, A, B, C, D, right? Everybody's gonna do that. You're just gonna copy those same letters, the differences in cursive, go A, how do you get from A to B? How do you get from A to B to the C, so that link between A and B is personal to every individual who has to make that connection? And movement is the same way I feel? Because you all have the same moves? How are you working the transitions? How are you making? How do the links between top to bottom, if we call transitions, or some people call the the not something space, is where everything really happens. And everything really matters? That link is where all matters, right? Because there's so many things that go on in that space, psychologically, mentally, physically, the direction, the direction and approach you're taking to get from that space to the next up from that particular move to the next. Yeah. So it's almost like I'm being a little far out here. Yeah. But it's like the DNA, that space that link is the DNA. But that connects those things for an individual or whatever it is that you're working with. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Tindar:
I think it does. Um, and then so thinking about, like, we talked a bit before about standardization, right? And so, I guess when, especially when thinking about, it could either be freestyle or choreography, however you're doing it, but when you have a you have a set of moves right, you got to places that you want to points points ABCD whatever. When you have those, those can be standardized, but is the real challenge then the link between a link between B and C? Is that Is that where the is that where the differences come in between People between different different works.
Raphael:
It could, it could but I also feel like the body type, when you're talking about movements, the body type and the move are very different depending on the individual. That's a whole thing by itself. If I'm telling you to go from standing to go down to the floor, how are you going to get there? till we get to next movie? Some people will just take the common sense rule just going to drop down, yes, some people are going to step and drop down. Some people are going to shift to the right, people will shift to the left, right. Some people will just fall backwards. Is there a right or wrong way? Is there an efficient and sufficient way? Yes, absolutely. But that movement is dependent on the individual and what their knowledge? Or what they don't know, is just as important as what they know. Because if you know how to do it, you're going to do it, right. The person that doesn't know how to do is just going to do it. And something's going to happen on that. It's going to be more fresh than your Yes. You mean. So there's, there's creativity in that space of not knowing. And there's by knowing it limits your creativity, because now you stuck on that track.
Tindar:
So does that mean that someone does know the right way? So no matter where you are, you should be trying to change what you're doing. Right? It sounds like because if you don't know, the right way, should probably try and figure it out the right way. So that you have that ability for it. But if you do know the right way. Now it's kind of paradoxical. Like if you know the right way you should go to the knobs completely,
Raphael:
then that's why I said when I watch you guys, my other classes, I see the not right way. And I see magic. I see gold in that. Yeah. So I can go mining in the class, because there's this stuff in there. That's so rich, man. You guys don't know what you're doing. Yeah. And I know, but I can't do that. Because I know how to watch the unknown. To get what I don't know. That is paradoxical. Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Tindar:
Interesting. So I guess so if you got one person, right? I think so if you give. So we do this all the time, right? We give people the same six moves, you got to do it in the sequence. And then we see the different links, I guess, thinking about? You've already mentioned one is body type, right, is that that can dictate a lot of, you know, what people will tend to do with it with how they apply the movement. Are there other things that go into that, like what what decides how someone goes like in the process you've seen, so like, take an example of the give in the class and class will give to will give the whole class six moves, they got to put them together in this sequence. And they'll find different ways to do it. But you could also write that off as well. Everyone's got a different body, right? Well, let's say a new a new example. You give to two twins, and they've got pretty much the exact same body, but they still come up with something different what's what's causing that? shocks.
Raphael:
He said to twins. It's easy, it's always going to be there their immediate reaction to something that did that. You're talking now approaching gestural ideas and concepts. Right? They're not going to test your face the same, they're not going to rub their hands the same. They may have moments where instinctually they do move a certain way. But I think the reaction and the gesture ideas that they just happen to do is going to be very different. You know what I mean?
Raphael:
Yeah, so it's something deeper than thinking about as dance it's, it's just the bottom sort of another word for gestural be like body language, how they're how they're, it speaks, or is it? Is it something that's in their mind? It's the
Raphael:
honest it's the honest movement. I like to say it's the honest parts. The most honest parts of a movement that you can get is the reaction to something. And I think you've seen me Do this in class, when I when I asked someone to give me something, they go, okay, and I go, that's it. Got it. Yeah, because it was this, they were going into a moment of let me think about it. And so this was honest, because they didn't do it on purpose, they did it like, I want to show this guy something. So I would take that movement, and then I do it to someone else. So now, by just having these gestures, or these honest reactions, I have here, here, here, here, all this and I create the movements from that. So to get from one thing to the next, or those links you're talking about, they're very different for everyone to get to the thought process. I have to make a gesture. I have to shift. But it's the honest reaction to those moments. That become the thing.
Tindar:
So there's Yeah, hearing about this, this honesty, right? People have a sort of their own honesty, but then our termite here, you utilize common sense, right? Or the passage of that a lot. Oh, that movie. Once you do this, you get to this point, then you follow it as common? Yes. Yeah. Those those two concepts seem to clash a little bit for me, because it sounds like common sense. It's common, it's among everyone. Right? And it's like, you follow it? You should you should your body should know. And then if you have honesty within that, honesty seems to me a bit more individual. Right. That's the honest reactions. Like when you're puzzled here, you're coming down here you you got it. You got a mustache and a beard. destruct. I don't have that. Right. Right. I'll be scratching my, my forehead. Um, what what is? What is the difference between common sense, and, and honesty? And how do they how do they go into the movements differently?
Raphael:
Man? That's a great question. Because, you know, common sense ain't so common. Exactly. Right. And now it has become, it has become a regular response to something. Oh, man, that's common sense. You don't have any common sense. You need common sense. So to say that it's honest cents, or something else, I think makes a whole lot of sense now. Or we can just say that it's it's connected some some kind of natural? I don't know. I don't know what word to use natural reaction natural, pro instinctual. This should be instinctual. But again, that's not that's not either, because instinctually people will do complete opposite of what it should be. I don't know what the think of that. But I do feel like common sense should be changed to something else, because it's not so common.
Tindar:
Yeah. I mean, that's something I've noticed when you said common sense. It's like, sometimes it sticks really well, and people will like, I'll just all go for it. And I'll see what my body does. And then body tells them how to do it. And that part of their brain that just controls the body alone, it knows what to do. But then I see some other people and pretty much everyone when you say common sense, they give a puzzled look at first. It's just a matter of how quickly they're able to pick it up, if at all when they when we say common sense.
Raphael:
Yeah. Let me put all kinds of things.
Raphael:
I think you were saying. Yeah, oh, yeah. The question was like about how some people common sense, is common sense. But then others. You say it and they have a puzzled look at first, maybe they get it quickly, but maybe they get it like it just doesn't stick or it takes a really long time for them to actually come upon it.
Raphael:
Yes, thinking about this, go back to the alphabet. Numbers for that matter. Common Sense. Seems to be based on knowledge. Now more you think of it and I've never thought about this before. This is the first time but common sense. The way we're talking about it or the way that
Raphael:
I talked about in class is based on knowledge or information that we should know. When I'm teaching someone something I'm assuming. And it's wrong of me to assume that they should know if I'm teaching them something, obviously they don't know. I wouldn't be teaching them. If you ask a child, a child what comes after a? He doesn't know? Because he hasn't learned alphabet yet when he learns the alphabet? Common Sense B. So it's the same thinking about it's the same with movement it's based on. Now the common not common sense is based on a particular stream of knowledge. awareness that you have. How do you walk? It's common sense. Yeah. Not if you don't know how to walk. Yeah, baby doesn't know how to walk. Exactly. So it's not common sense. So changing the idea of common sense. Now think about it, we need to think about that common sense is based on knowledge acquired knowledge, as you have already have something and if you don't have that knowledge, it's not common sense. Yeah. Common is, everybody should know that thing. Yeah, perfect. Yeah.
Raphael:
So okay, so just to summarize, then, it's like you got, you got this, there is no such thing as common sense. And the absolute a baby right out of the womb, maybe it's got some act natural instincts that are completely like, sometimes survival instincts that are inseparable, but at certain points, like movement, even like walking or knowing the alphabet, those are things that you have to have some level of acquired knowledge and, and, in some sense, in pretty much everyone in regular society, you can assume, or they know the alphabet and know how to walk. But, you know, if, you know if you said someone who's been wheelchair bound the whole life, how to walk as an example, some of that wouldn't be common sense for us. Right? So there's, there's examples where they break common sense. And then it's a question of how far does that extend? Yeah, right. And so maybe, what was what was in the environment where you first went on these movements? That was common sense. I don't know, take an example. Like, just like, look at the easy stuff, like, you know, different generations, right? You got kids, you know, inside playing video games a lot growing up now. And so things that were common sense movements, on you know, in the neighborhood, or, or the playground, whatever, as, as little kids, maybe those aren't as common sense now, because they're the inside. That's there's like subtle changes to that. So then, common sense is no longer as common because it's it's changes if dynamic changes over time. We just need to be conscious of what those those changes are.
Raphael:
Yeah. I never thought about them before. The first time I ever had conversations about common sense. But but having knowledge of those things, I realized that common sense is not
Tindar:
Yeah, so I guess it's the last sort of things to apply common sense two linking a bit more as how we've thought common sense is the links, right? It's, it's, we will give you the words and stuff, but you should know the transitions between them which you should know the word but you should be able to make the phrase from the words and that ability to do that. You know, often case is the common sense. But now it's like maybe there's a different idea of what common sense is different links and links kind of go in and out of date?
Raphael:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's something in the idea of hesitation because when you when you hesitate, there's a lot of things that are going on in your head whether you're crossing the street and cars coming should I go well, I get hit. Is it my turn? Who's watching jaywalking all these things are going on in your head I just love my dog that way. What did it What was your What was your
Raphael:
hours? Like, you know, what's, what's the how does how does common sense by the Lincoln are they links in themselves and it's like how what the links that people make between different poses and movements,
Raphael:
something that when we, when we, when we take the side to people when when you decide to take the initial step
Raphael:
into a into a space that has a bunch of variables in it. You're going to hesitate, okay, because you're thinking about these things, okay. There is a lot of power in the Word or hesitation because it's natural, it happens, it jumps in a way protects the body and protects the thought it protects. It's something about protecting that moment. So we don't say anything dumb, we don't say anything wrong, we don't step into a space where I'm familiar with don't embarrass ourselves. So the arm is a moment of to get to gain clarity to make a better choice. So that's a link in itself, that we look at, as on certainty. But it's not, it's the bodies, or the minds. defense mechanism. And so if we look at those links, as being an idea of Link being on purpose, or to connect something, we're deliberately going from one thing to the next on purpose, we go from one thing to the next on purpose, but the link between
Raphael:
knowing and not to say the link between. 70 and uncertainty is unknown. There's only protection, right? Everybody's gonna be different. Everybody's, everybody's thinking that way. It's going to be different. Because someone you can have, I don't know if I say this, because I could be wrong. Or wait, there's something better than say
Raphael:
something better, or I'm gonna stay on China say, yeah. So, um, I think there's something powerful about that hesitation on those moments before you continue to venture into that to take that next step.
Tindar:
Yeah, no, that is, so what I have to do with this, the, the text of this, I gotta create a small little website, right, you know, because the, the original format of web design, right. And so to showcase what we talked about, and that gave me a really good idea, which is, you got to how do you in that space? You have hyperlinks, right? hyperplane? Right. But there's no, um, space, like, you have, like, loading time sometimes. But there's but but there's, but really, it's just jump here, jump there. Yeah, there's no duration, there's no depth to to, to link in that space. So how could I add that? And that's give me the, it's gotten my gears turning into how to do that and creating that project. So that's, that's interesting. But that's, uh, yeah, I think. I guess just to make sure I fully understand too, is like, sometimes we talk about, just do what comes to mind. And so it seems to be going against the right, so we say just just do what your body tells you. But then in and then we say, Don't worry about that. If you sit here for too long thing about the movement, just let your body figure it out. Yeah, right. Yeah. What is what is a what is the balance there? And we've also talked about, um, as a very, like, literal, like, verbal thing, right? You talked about, you know, it's just in the conversation, you say, um, but taking that back to movement, what is a physical was a physical form of
Raphael:
repetition, sometimes. Yeah, repetition can become their own because you, you have to, you have to do it again and again, until you get your bearings. Right. So, if you if you if you think you're bouncing around the circle, you don't know where you go, and you just stay there or you find something to catch on to the beat and then you go write a six
Tindar:
step isn't? Because it's you, you need that the filler moves to
Raphael:
Well, I wouldn't say I wouldn't say six step is. It could be but it's also you know, it's also a good transition, or what people call stutter steps like you have a stutter step where you will go to cc the couple of times. Or you go to repeating hooks a couple of times, but repetition is the I think the visual field of
Raphael:
read you gotta think about it. Yeah, repetition, or something you already know. Yeah, you
Raphael
learn habits. And those habits create momentum. You know, you do it over again. You do evolve into a space.
Raphael:
Yeah. Okay, so then that's the one thing, thing I add, there are two things that I was there was a, it was okay, what's the physical and the other was? What's the what's the value and the contrast between the arm? And like intuition, right? Just going quickly. Right? Because when you if you have someone I'm too long. It's overthinking. Right? And how and you want some of the ideas, they come out when you're under pressure, right, and you're in the cypher, you don't that's when the improv stuff. It's the pressure cooker that brings it out. And how do you? What's the value to each of those sides? And where's the balance of them?
Raphael:
I think like I said before, the value is in the moment of protection. Right? It protects you in some sense. You got a lot of ohms today, man.
Tindar:
So okay, so I think we we have a good sense of the why. And I'm physical, verbal, whatever, is valuable. Yeah. But we've I've also definitely heard, probably from you, but I'm maybe more from other places is just go intuitively, don't think and then see what comes out. Yeah. And that's, that's something that at least I've heard some people say, what what? Why would we reject the OEM in favor for that? And like, what context is that valuable?
Raphael:
I feel like because we were still thinking we haven't explored the umm enough, we're still thinking that the arm is a moment of an unknown you don't know unsure uncertainty right?
Raphael:
Reaction reaction is is intuitively is not Reaction. Reaction is not common sense. Intuitively, is based on how I feel in the moment, and I know I'm, I just feel this is right. I feel this is the feeling.
Raphael:
And when you have that feeling, you react. And things come out of that improvisational moments can come out of that, for me, pull it from my toolbox and come out of that. You know, I have a rich source of information in my toolbox. Intuitively, I'm going there. Improv is a reaction to something that I have to resolve. I said this not too long ago.
Raphael:
Human in human ingenuity cannot resolve a cipher. Human ingenuity cannot concoct a cipher that human ingenuity cannot resolve. So my intuitive approach or reaction is me knowing that I have power in my toolbox. So intuitively, I know that something would trigger me and cause me to react without thinking about it. Right? I'm sitting here thinking right now on how to how to do something that will be improv and I can't it's not improv. So I don't want to do it. No matter what I do, how I do it, because I'm thinking in this moment right now of how to distract myself to do something improvisational, I can't do it. It's not it's not working for me. Right? Because intuitively, I'm aware of feeling. Every moment I think about trying to do something to put a barrier in front of me to cause me to react. Improvisation away and it's not happening. That right, there was probably improv. That was also a reaction. It was also wrong. Yes, it's a it's a weird game. And so if you think about all of this stuff, like, it leads us right back into the first idea of a link. Right, all these things go into that link. It's not common sense.
Raphael:
It's It's not intuitive. It's not a protective thing, but at the same time, it's all of that.
End of recording.